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"Foil Copy"

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  • Member since
    August, 2004
  • From: Berkeley, CA
"Foil Copy"
Posted by clamm on Saturday, February 02, 2008 11:07 AM
The latest Scale Auto Mag has an article by Juha Airio where he rebuilds a 72 Roadrunner. Anyone who's seen this guy's work probably knows what I know--Juha is the Michael Jordan of our hobby.

OK now on to my question. In this article Juha talks in a few places about "Foil copying" a part. The results seem to be perfect. Does anyone know how he does it? Is he using Bare Metal Foil somehow for this? Resin in molds? Or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice or links you can provide!!!
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:49 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by clamm

The latest Scale Auto Mag has an article by Juha Airio where he rebuilds a 72 Roadrunner. Anyone who's seen this guy's work probably knows what I know--Juha is the Michael Jordan of our hobby.

OK now on to my question. In this article Juha talks in a few places about "Foil copying" a part. The results seem to be perfect. Does anyone know how he does it? Is he using Bare Metal Foil somehow for this? Resin in molds? Or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice or links you can provide!!!


Foil copying (or, foil casting) is done by taking a piece of metal foil--generally aluminum kitchen foil, because it's heavier and stiffer than BMF, laying that over an engraved surface detail of a model body or part, embossing it into that detail (could be a script, a badge, a molded-on door handle, for example). Once it's embossed, it has the impression of the detail you want to copy. Simply lift off the embossed piece of foil, gently lay it on a flat surface, hollow side up, spray with a light spray of Pam or other oily substance to act as a mold release, then mix up some 5-minute epoxy (Devcon is perhaps the best for this!), and fill the embossed foil with that, and allow to cure completely.

Once cured, the epoxy casting can be removed from its foil "mold", sanded on the back side to a flat surface, any flashing trimmed away, and then glued in place on the body shell, or wherever it is to be used. It can then be painted, foiled with BMF, whatever is wanted as you finish the project.

Biscuitbuilder1
  • Member since
    September, 2004
Posted by Steve Boutte on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:28 PM
The center trim on this console was created by laying kitchen foil on the hood of a '56 Pontiac, & burnishing the ribs. I then cut the foil along edges, & glued it to the console.


Here, you can see the ribs on the hood that it was copied from.

Steve www.sbkustoms.com
  • Member since
    November, 2007
  • From: Canada
Posted by noname on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:08 AM
These are great tricks guys. Steve the paint in your last photo is unreal!
  • Member since
    October, 2006
  • From: Tehachapi, CA
Posted by emswife on Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:07 AM
Biscuit,

what is the advantage to casting a marque or emblem that is already on the model? Is it easier to work with when painting or foiling of just stands out more in relief?

Seems like a duplication of something if the marque is already there?

Just wondering because I have a Mustang with all kinds of this stuff and am attacking that phase of my progression as a model builder.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."- G. Marx http://public.fotki.com/emswife/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/emswife/ ____________________________________________________________ Patrick
  • Member since
    January, 2005
  • From: Cape Coral Florida
Posted by BigTallDad on Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:52 AM
At the risk of speaking in behalf of biscuitbuilder1: One advantage is being able to make a copy of the in-place emblem, thus allowing you to sand off the emblem, lay down some nice paint, then attach the copy after foiling it. I'm doing that very thing for the oval hood ornament on my Mustang SVO.

"In order to teach a dog, you must first be smarter than the dog" P.R. Ferguson

  • Member since
    October, 2006
  • From: Tehachapi, CA
Posted by emswife on Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:56 AM
BTD, I don't think BB would mind, but what you say makes sense. I am on a limited time schedule so maybe next time. And combined with your balsa answer about cleaner the marques after evey coat of paint, I can see the logic in sanding off the marques after foil casting and replacing them.

Thanks
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."- G. Marx http://public.fotki.com/emswife/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/emswife/ ____________________________________________________________ Patrick
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 09, 2008 2:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BigTallDad

At the risk of speaking in behalf of biscuitbuilder1: One advantage is being able to make a copy of the in-place emblem, thus allowing you to sand off the emblem, lay down some nice paint, then attach the copy after foiling it. I'm doing that very thing for the oval hood ornament on my Mustang SVO.


While I never used foil or Silicone II to "pull" emblems and scripts prior to sanding off for painting, I can see the value of that. My painting techniques evolved over time to the point that losing surface details such as those never seems to be a problem, but then, that's me, others may or may not be able to do it as I do.

However, where this DOES work, is in doing conversions. For example, when I did my masters for a resin-cast '59 Chevy "Flat Roof" Sport Sedan (4dr HT), I needed the 4-dr versions of the 2dr HT armrests and door handles--making simple RTV molds of those details from convertible interior panels did the trick. Other foil/rubber cast emblems I've done include the base Chevrolet dash badge from '59 (taken from the AMT '59 El Camino, used on the dash of my '59 Biscayne), and lifting the gauge dials from an AMT 289 Cobra for use on several dashboards of other cars, both resin, and for personal projects.

It's a great little technique.

Biscuitbuilder1
  • Member since
    May, 2006
Posted by dsully66 on Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by biscuitbuilder1

QUOTE: Originally posted by clamm

The latest Scale Auto Mag has an article by Juha Airio where he rebuilds a 72 Roadrunner. Anyone who's seen this guy's work probably knows what I know--Juha is the Michael Jordan of our hobby.

OK now on to my question. In this article Juha talks in a few places about "Foil copying" a part. The results seem to be perfect. Does anyone know how he does it? Is he using Bare Metal Foil somehow for this? Resin in molds? Or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice or links you can provide!!!


Foil copying (or, foil casting) is done by taking a piece of metal foil--generally aluminum kitchen foil, because it's heavier and stiffer than BMF, laying that over an engraved surface detail of a model body or part, embossing it into that detail (could be a script, a badge, a molded-on door handle, for example). Once it's embossed, it has the impression of the detail you want to copy. Simply lift off the embossed piece of foil, gently lay it on a flat surface, hollow side up, spray with a light spray of Pam or other oily substance to act as a mold release, then mix up some 5-minute epoxy (Devcon is perhaps the best for this!), and fill the embossed foil with that, and allow to cure completely.

Once cured, the epoxy casting can be removed from its foil "mold", sanded on the back side to a flat surface, any flashing trimmed away, and then glued in place on the body shell, or wherever it is to be used. It can then be painted, foiled with BMF, whatever is wanted as you finish the project.

Biscuitbuilder1



Thanks Biscuit! That's the process I had asked about a couple of months ago. I had seen it in either SAE or Car Modeler back in the late 80s/early 90s. It is a cool way to transfer trim details from one kit to another. On my 70 Chevy p/u, I used it to transfer the fender engine badges (8-350) to underneath the sidelights. The only difference was I used white glue instead of 5 minute epoxy. I didn't have any epoxy! I probably wouldn't use white glue as a regular filler though.
Dan
  • Member since
    December, 2007
Posted by jjscott on Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:24 AM
I just tried this method on the V-8 emblems on a 53 Studebaker. I'm finding it difficult to do. I can get what seems to be a good foil pattern/mold. Where my problem comes is when I try to sand the back after molding. Because the car nose and tail isn't flat I'm finding I sand into areas I need to save while leaving excess where I don't want it. I'm using heated 5 minute epoxy for the casting.

I also tried cuting around the emblem from the front side -- that didn't work either.

Guess I need to keep practicing.

Jim
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 24, 2008 10:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jjscott

I just tried this method on the V-8 emblems on a 53 Studebaker. I'm finding it difficult to do. I can get what seems to be a good foil pattern/mold. Where my problem comes is when I try to sand the back after molding. Because the car nose and tail isn't flat I'm finding I sand into areas I need to save while leaving excess where I don't want it. I'm using heated 5 minute epoxy for the casting.

I also tried cuting around the emblem from the front side -- that didn't work either.

Guess I need to keep practicing.

Jim

This might be a place to use DAP Silicone II for making the mold of such an emblem, frankly. With the Silicone II RTV, you can make this mold pretty thick, so that it has some stiffness to it, and then once you've gotten a cured epoxy emblem cast in it, simply use the mold to hold that detail part while you file and sand away the excess material. This is were half-round and "double round" needle fies come in very handy! Those files can help you get rid of the excess thickness, while maintaining the curvature to the back of the emblem as needed. Rolling up 400-grit Wet or Dry sandpaper also can work here, and used wet, can help remove the last bit of excess material, so you wind up with tissue paper thin flash that is easily removed.

Just some thoughts here!

Biscuitbuilder1
  • Member since
    December, 2007
Posted by jjscott on Monday, February 25, 2008 8:00 AM
Biscuitbuilder, thanks.

A silicone mold may just be the answer. I would be concerned with putting the silicone on a body I planned to paint. Any experience with that and fisheyes?

Jim
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 25, 2008 9:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jjscott

Biscuitbuilder, thanks.

A silicone mold may just be the answer. I would be concerned with putting the silicone on a body I planned to paint. Any experience with that and fisheyes?

Jim


Jim,

I've not had a problem with Silicone RTV transferring silicones (the biggest enemy of paint adhesion) to the surface of a model. There seems to be a great difference between silicone as part of a synthetic catalyzed or ammonia-cured rubber compound and silicones used as a part of a wax or polish, from my experience.

At any rate, to just be on the safe side, you can degrease the body shell after such work is done, either by washing in a good hand-soap (Dial works great, with an old toothbrush) or by washing down (dipping) the body shell in Naptha (a petroleum based solvent I've used many a time for degreasing styrene and resin parts before painting). Naptha is essentially lighter fluid, does not attack (in my experience) either unpainted styrene or resin) and is readily available in paint departments of home improvement stores, and places like Walmart. Use this stuff outdoors though, as the fumes are flammable.

Biscuitbuilder1
  • Member since
    December, 2007
Posted by jjscott on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:25 AM
Thanks I'll try it and report back here.

Jim
  • Member since
    February, 2007
  • From: Sidney BC
Posted by Raydee53 on Friday, July 04, 2008 10:43 AM

I am trying this on my 59 El Camino right now. The kit has bed cover that looks like tuck and roll,so I foil copied that and used some school gel glue to make the part. This is the first time trying the school glue so I hope it turns out.This is just what I had on hand, so I used that.

"Never tell me the odds"-Han Solo "He was a loser, you know. Every high school has to have at least two: it's like a national law. One male, one female. Everyone's dumping ground." - Christine, narration, Prologue
  • Member since
    February, 2005
Posted by carrucha on Friday, July 18, 2008 1:40 PM

Great tips.  These will really come in handy when I build my '69 Impala SS.  About 8 years ago I bought an R&R  '69 Impala SS resin kit that had a big dimple on the Impala script on the A-pillar.  The script on the opposite A-pillar is fine.  Now I can sand off the damaged script and make a copy from the good Impala script.

carrucha

  • Member since
    August, 2004
  • From: Berkeley, CA
Posted by clamm on Monday, August 10, 2009 7:03 PM

Guys, I was the one who started this thread way back when and I'm sorry to say i can't get any of this to work....I have tried this off and on for several weeks....when I pull up the cured epoxy it just looks like a little blob w/ no detail.....  Any ideas what I am doing wrong?

--I am using standard tinfoil and trying a variety of things to copy (vents, logos, emblems, etc).  Nothing works....including things that seem pretty easy, like vents from right below the windshield.

--I am using Devcon 5 minute epoxy.

 --I am using "Safeway cooking spray no stick vegetable oil" to keep; the epoxy from sticking to the tinfoil. 

It seems to me perhaps the mold release agent (veggie oil spray) gets stuck in the details so I end up with something that looks like a little clear blob of goo instead of vents or something that says "Fuel Injected". 

 I tried just brushing on a TINY TINY bit of the veggie spray, no change.

Am I using the wrong kind of release agent?  Or is it something else?   Any ideas?  I mean, I'm not even coming close....

  • Member since
    April, 2005
Posted by Pat-f on Friday, January 08, 2010 3:12 PM

 

I've made good molds with silicone caulk.  I've been able to pull parts with crisp detail, with out any mold release.  I've even put the color down in the mold before casting the part.  I used Tamiya putty for the casting.  My problem is that the scripts are so thin and delicate that I mess them up while prepping them to glue on the model.  I'm going to try Testors clear parts cement and window maker next, as that drys somewhat flexible.
  • Member since
    April, 2005
Posted by Pat-f on Friday, January 08, 2010 3:14 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention.  You might be having problems with trapping air in the mold.  Try painting the epoxy in the mold in layers, rather then trying to pack in a glob of it.

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: Houston
Posted by the_gunslinger on Friday, January 08, 2010 3:34 PM

 This is awesome! I am going to have to try this one!

What's the red button?.. It's lightspeed kid. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda On the bench: ...Classified...

  • Member since
    April, 2009
Posted by ProStock01 on Monday, January 11, 2010 6:07 AM
In the last "finished" shot has the bumper been painted and sealed in gloss? Because it looks alot cleaner than the chrom beforehand, what's the secret?
  • Member since
    February, 2005
  • From: Sandnes,Norway
Posted by bugace on Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:02 AM

There is a option making this a bit easier.

When You have made the silicone mould, or epoxy mould, sand the emblem or script , removing all recess. Then put the emblem on its place befor paint! Cover it with Your prefered foil, but let it be a square, meaning You have chrome outside the emblem as well. Lets say 1/6 inch or so on all sides. Then use filler to just blend in the very small hightdifference betweene the foiled surface, and the bodypanel. Paint Your body, then polishe carefully over the script, letting the script comming through the paint. As You alredy have foiled it, You now have a perfect script, with paint in betweene the letters! I've always belived this was the main technic used by Juha Airo, but I'll ask him next time I meet him(March 2010)

I belive Juha drybrushes the scripts if he have added them after paint, but I will not tell I'm 100% sure about that.

You might also take Your time, using white glue, and a very sharp tooth pick, or other prefered tool, to write Your own script. This was whar Juha did with his Cuda Prototype some ten or so Years ago. Espacially if You have to create a script on the grille, this might be the best solution.

But, whatever technic You use, it is important to have the right tools, lots of light, and beeing relaxed, if not You will be acheing all over, not only beeing sad for not getting it right. Also, if You use Juha as a referance, be aware he have built modelcars since the mid/late '60s, and have developed his technic during decades of building!!

 

http://public.fotki.com/bugace/plastic-modelbuilding/ Hmmmm, where is the glue, know I it got here some where.......hi,hi,hi,hi..........hmmmm Gues my wife has hidden it........................hi,hi,hi,hi................................

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