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V-12 Viper Motor

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  • Member since
    July, 2008
V-12 Viper Motor
Posted by plastik wacker on Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:46 PM

Any suggestions on how to make the V-10 into a 12?  Anyone who has done engine enlargements before with tips, techniques and photos would be appreciated!

  • Member since
    January, 2011
  • From: Sioux Falls, SD
Posted by Slammed C10 on Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:25 PM

never done this before but what if you cut the motor in the middle and cut a middle chunk off another v10 and put that in the middle of the halfed motor? that sounds to me like it would do the trick you may have to do it to the intake and the manifolds to

  • Member since
    February, 2010
Posted by ace-garageguy on Sunday, March 27, 2011 4:16 PM

In the real world, the Viper V-10 engine has a 90 degree angle between cylinder banks. This isn't appropriate for a V-12. V-12 engines are  most commonly built with a 60 degree angle between cylinder banks. It all has to do with vibration and firing order, two very important aspects of engine design. If you can simply find a V-12 from a gluebomb Ferrari or Lambo model, you'll end up with a much more engineering-correct model, if you care. Due to the narrower angle between cylinder banks, the correct 60 degree engine will most likely fit between your frame rails a little easier too.

If you really want to do a Viper-based V-12,  slammedc10's suggestion will work fine, but to make it right, you  need to split it lengthwise and narrow that angle between cylinder banks. In order to do it, you'll have to cut the engine free from the gearbox. I've just looked at the engines in the Revell Viper GTS coupe, and the Sidewinder show truck. The GTS engine has exhaust manifolds molded into the engine casting, and will be tough to make look right. The Sidewinder Viper engine has separate exhaust manifolds, so would be a little easier from that standpoint. The intake manifolds and valve covers will also need to be stretched, and the intake manifold will need to be narrowed if you correct the angle between cylinder banks.

Plan your work, work your plan.

Measure twice, post once.

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by plastik wacker on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:53 PM

Hi Ace-garageguy,

I had no idea about all the angles and stuff on the engines.  Sounds like painfuI surgery. I have the newest SRT10 ACR Coupe that would have given up the engine and other parts.  I envisioned taking the 62 300J, keeping it all Mopar and yet able to meet the theme class for a show next year.  I don't think dodge ever made a V12. 

 

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by plastik wacker on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:53 PM

Thanks

  • Member since
    February, 2010
Posted by ace-garageguy on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:27 PM

Far as I know, Chrysler Corp (Dodge's parent company) never made a V-12, other than a tank engine in WWII, and the prototype ME Four Twelve from 2004. I know very little about either engine, but I'd assume they were both 60 degree engines. I've looked at the Viper kit motors I have, and the conversion wouldn't really be all that difficult. The Viper engine is a little odd really, as it's essentially 2, even-fire inline 5 cylinder engines in a common block, on a common crankshaft. The layout requires balance shafts and an odd firing order ( which gives the Viper engine it's distinctive sound ) to deal with the engine's inherent imbalance problems. It's based on Chrysler's LA series V8 engine block, and is a pushrod / rocker arm design rather than an overhead cam.

A case could be made for running a Lamborghini V-12 engine in a Viper model under the rules you are wanting to comply with, as Chrysler OWNED Lamborghini for a while. I've bought bodged Lambo kits from ebay for under $10, so that might be a way to go.

Plan your work, work your plan.

Measure twice, post once.

  • Member since
    February, 2010
Posted by ace-garageguy on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:37 AM

Just a thought if you elect to use a Lambo V-12,,,,,the Countach, Diablo, etc. are mid-engine cars, of course, but the engines are installed in the cars backwards. What I mean is that the flywheel and transmissions in these are at the front of the engine, rather than at the rear as in many other mid-engine, longitudinal applications. The driveshafts run from the forward transmission back through the sump to a rear mounted differential. This was done for weight distribution, and to make the shift linkage very quick and accurate.

To modify a Lambo kit engine for a front-engine, rear-drive application like the Viper, I'd suggest you start with the Countach engine. They can be had cheap. The drive axles come out the sides of the rear sump ( which will be the front ),, and are rather easily blanked off for a front-engine installation. Then you'd just cut off the Lambo transmission ( which has no driveshaft output at the end ) and graft on the Viper gearbox.

In reality, the early Countach engine is very similar to the Lamborghini Espada engine, which WAS a front-engine, rear-drive car, installed normally.

Plan your work, work your plan.

Measure twice, post once.

  • Member since
    March, 2010
  • From: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted by 70CudaTJ on Thursday, March 31, 2011 6:02 AM

If you're not fussed about engine angles etc, I don't think it'll be too hard at all for someone with good modelling skills.

Looking at the early Viper V10's I have, I don't think it's such a huge job. To me the easiest way is to use two engines if you can?

Cut one engine half behind the third row of cylinders from the front and the other engine half behind the second row of cylinders from the front. Now use three front cylinders from one and rear three (with transmission) from the other and match up the joins, remembering to keep the cylinder spacing the same. To me this would be the best place to do it as it cuts through the sump pan, which could be cleaned up fairly easily or even covered with a thin sheet of styrene to hide it. Obviously there will be some putty and sanding involved, but under the headers or the intake manifold, not much, if anything, can be seen when assembled. Just repeat for the other half of the engine.

Next, onto the valve covers, if they are like mine they have the Viper name and logos, so you may just have to shave these off completely first and then basically use the same above method as the block and heads, cut them three from the front and the other three from the rear (I think you can see where this is going). If you think that great big joint is too weak, cut the valve covers four from the front and four from the rear (using 4+2) and this would stagger the joints and give it all a bit of strength (a bit like brick work), plus help disguising the joint too.

The air intake manifold should be pretty simple using the same method as before. Now the exhaust manifold is a bit trickier. Depending on how much you think you will be able to see once assembled, you might have to fabricate small extensions of the exhaust runners, or cut one runner of the end of the spare manifold and add it to the V12 one. But you may just get away with a similar cut and shut as per the rest of the engine, depends on the header design.

Using this method might be slightly more complicated, but it only has one join to clean up, rather than two joins which are created by just cutting the engine and adding in a slice from another. Both methods involve using two engines, but a little thought and measuring before you cut will result in a neater job.

After all is said and done, it's up to you whether a 90 or 60 degree angle is that obvious to you, but I'm fairly sure not that many people will notice or even know about it.

Good luck mate, it's a bit of a job to do, but by no means impossible Thumbs Up and will look super cool Cool

Tim

Slow progress is better than no progress!

  • Member since
    January, 2011
  • From: Sioux Falls, SD
Posted by Slammed C10 on Friday, April 01, 2011 8:56 PM

dude i work at a nissan dealership and i didnt even know about the angles from v12 and v10.....oh cool info if anyone cares we just got in our first 2012 GTR pretty sweet...a lot cooler then all the 08-10's we have come in

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by plastik wacker on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 8:47 PM

  1962 300 Engine1962 300

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by plastik wacker on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 8:49 PM

Just getting back into the forums and decided to put some pics into the original post years ago...

  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Nova Scotia
Posted by Bainford on Thursday, February 02, 2017 7:49 AM

Very cool build. The classic lines of the big Chrysler are a nice home for that V-12. Nicely done.

Power matters in the straights.
Lightness matters everywhere. - Colin Chapman

Trevor

  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Dearborn Heights, MI.
Posted by tadkins796 on Friday, February 03, 2017 5:34 AM
I agree with 70 Cuda TJ, that sounds like thats the best way to do it, besides it only a model, in the engine bay no one will see if the angles are correct.
JUST GIVE IT A TRY http://public.fotki.com/tadkins796/my_models
  • Member since
    December, 2007
  • From: Portland Oregon: Tree Country. Most beautiful area on the West coast.
Posted by Treehugger Dave on Friday, February 03, 2017 11:04 AM

Why do engine angles matter? This is plastic pretend stuff not real life. Do it any way you want and have fun - it's just a hobbyThumbs Up

I love Mecum Auctions and Barrett/Jackson auctions and what would I do without Ebay.

 

 

                                     

 

 

  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Dearborn Heights, MI.
Posted by tadkins796 on Saturday, February 04, 2017 12:59 PM

Aman TreeHugger Dave

JUST GIVE IT A TRY http://public.fotki.com/tadkins796/my_models
  • Member since
    December, 2006
Posted by hachirokami on Saturday, February 04, 2017 1:37 PM

It's up to the builder to decide how much realism to put into an imagineered project. As Dave pointed out, it's scale size plastic. No-one will notice the angles.

Besides,with the right skills, tools and desire builders do the same in real life.

 

Enter the LS V12

  Check out more info here

 

http://www.lsxmag.com/news/the-ls12-the-inside-scoop-on-the-v12-ls-engine/

  • Member since
    September, 2017
Posted by Big Gary on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 3:27 AM
Chrysler made a hemi V12 aircraft engine in 1944. It was intended for a P-47 variant. See www.allpar.com
  • Member since
    August, 2016
Posted by mini man on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 5:13 AM

Interesting thread! I have V12s by Rolls Royce,Jaguar and Ferrari?

Will build most anything,love American cars muscle etc.Britishvehicles are a buzz too,trucks are great - want to do a jet truck,building parts up...

Nigel.

 

U.K.

  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Nova Scotia
Posted by Bainford on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 7:33 AM

Despite everything that is said above, 90 degree V-12 is perfectly viable. With custom crankpin designs and balance shafts, etc most V angles can be accommodated for any number of cylinders, even if it is not practical to do so. However, the natural balance of the V-12 engine means it can be built to any angle without the need for extraneous balancing devices.

Power matters in the straights.
Lightness matters everywhere. - Colin Chapman

Trevor

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