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To help the Younger Gen on knowing between Muscle cars

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  • Member since
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To help the Younger Gen on knowing between Muscle cars
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:48 AM
This is to help the younger people out there that realy didnt live in the eara of the True Muscle Car war or close to it.
In 1960 GM had a contract to build police cars at this time they where called Hypo cars. If you had a freind at the Dealer ship you could order this car for your self. GM's clame and started a war that would last over 14yrs to the end and also Drag racing had a name for the cars in this called FX/A Factory Experimental / A class would be know'n as Pro Stock later.
To define the Name Muscle Car it is a Factory High Out Put Motor in a Mid To full Size Car. Now we take a look at Muscle Car names from the start of this from the big three.
60 to 63 GM- Impala, Byscane, Bel Air, 60 to 61 motor size 409ci 375hp,62 had to offers 409 with 375 to 409ci 409hp Single 4 barrel. in 63 seen two offer but more hp 409ci 409hp, 409ci 425hp (this was the car that the beach boys sing about)
Ford's answer to GM came from the big Galixe 500 not known on motor size.
Dodge came back with there car also and so on down the line.

For the next 14yrs the big three would rage a war over HP and car's but here is where a lot of younger and older GEN get mad at each othere.

non Muscle Car's - 62 GM had a Pony Car that would start another war. the Chevy II (better known as the Nova) it would take Ford till 64 for the Mustang and the nove took a back seat to the Comaro in 67 Dodge had there answer with the Dart and the Challanger.
even with the big motors in the pony cars they where still not a muscle car name they had there own listing and followers. The light weight and short Wheel base would move the Know'n Muscle car out for them on the drag stip.

some info on GM motor's alot do not know in 64 the 409 was D-stroked to make way for the 396ci and also Bored and stroked to make the 427ci.
In 1970 the 396ci was changed to the right engine size by the math and it was the 402.

Over the past 40yrs no one has keep the true name plate of the muscle car eara but GM. the Monte Carlo that was the Last true mid Size Muscle car in 72 with its 454 option. 2004 Monte Carlo has stand the test of time and still lives as a name plate today. Ford nore Dodge has a name plate from that time.
  • Member since
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  • From: West of Chicago
Posted by garyo on Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:36 PM
Here is a link to World of info on Muscle cars (including some info on the little known Ford Hemi engine the 427 Wedge, see if you can find it)

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/musclecars.shtml
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:57 PM
i guess im not going to get into a debate about if Comaro and Vet is a Muscle car specialy when 3/4 of the people where around when the true War started is either dead or so old they have altimers. But you still ask any one Vetts are sports cars it was GM answer to the Jag. Each car builder would come out with there car to go up with another car. Ford Thunderbird was a sports car when it was made. I have enuff pic's from my Father when he and Don Nicholeson or how he spell's it. Ran each othere at the 62 Northern Nats at US-131 and also at Detroit Drag Way with 4 lanes but that then and there as not one Small or Mid Size car in FX/A group.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 9:21 AM
Hi!

People seem to forget that the Muscle cars originated with Oldsmobile in 1949 when they put their new Rocket V8 motor from the 98 luxary car into their 76 series low priced car, thus making a middle car known as the Rocket 88.

This new engine was impressive for it's day, having a compression ratio of 7.25 to 1. As the Rocket powerplant was introduced, engineers were already saying that as gasoline Octane ratings could be upped, compression ratios would rise to 12.5 to 1. They still used this motor, bored up to 350 CI until the late 1970's.

Another notible '50's era muscle car is the AMC Rambler Rebel which had the large 327 CI 255 Horsepower V8 borrowed from the large Ambassadors. This car could go from 0 to 60 in 7.2 seconds!

Although the term "Muscle car" wasn't penned until the 1960's, the fact remains that there were muscle cars in the 1950's.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 9:43 AM
and so the WAR begins again!!!!
  • Member since
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Posted by Andy Lilienthal on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 1:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by littlemoe

and so the WAR begins again!!!!
Oh no, we're not going to have a war. We can have intelligent converstaion, though. Smile
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 4:01 PM
Thats true. That the 98 was the unsong hero of the Muscle car start but just think if it wasnt realy back then that the police had some thing diffrent then the public this would have never started. They had the motor and the chassis upgrade before the public and you could only get one if you knew the right person at the Dealer. Like in 64 when the 409 became the 396ci and the Mistery motor 427ci that didnt come to the publics eye untill 65.
  • Member since
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Posted by raisin27 on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 7:52 PM
Boy your going to start something with this topic! If you ask me the first "muscle cars" were the rocket 88 olds and chyrsler 300's (392 hemi power) from the mid 50's. I do remember around 1985 when Muscle Car Revue magazine set out to determine the first muscle car. They laid out a set of conditions that a car must meet to qualify (no sports cars, or special one offs). There determination was the 1960 Ford starliner with the 352 "special" V8, 360 hp and 3 speed stick was the first official "muscle car"........Raisin
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v19/amazinraisin27/
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 11:23 PM
A Ford!!!! NO WAY!!! I won't allow it!!!!!


please, say it ain't so!!!!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 11:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by littlemoe

A Ford!!!! NO WAY!!! I won't allow it!!!!!


please, say it ain't so!!!!


HAHA you know what they say about fords! F***ers Only Run Downhill!!!! im a bowtie person myself.

Hands down, the first true muscle car was the Chrysler 300, not the GTO.

on a side note, anybody hear about the new GTO they are making? that thing is sweet. i got an email thing that had a sound fule of the engine at idle and reving. OOh was it sweet!
  • Member since
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  • From: Pittsburgh, Pa.
Posted by Fordforever on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 1:56 AM
HA HA you know what they say about GM --GARBAGE MOTORS!!!LaughLaugh
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:56 AM
Ford 352ci and you call that equal to the Chevy Hypo 409 Police car not shure but i bet one on one the Hypo would clean its clock. But what i said was that there was some 50s cars that had where unsong hero's. But the Police had more of the special cars before the public did and the contract to supply the police in the US was the main reason for the HP on the motors then the Public started in it for Drag Racing.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:03 AM
Ford - Fixed Or Repaired Daily, Fork Over Repair Dollars, Flooded On Race Day, Found On Road Dead, For Old Redneck Dorks, Forshadowing Oncoming Relevant Disasters... - just kidding!


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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:06 AM
First "muscle cars" were the ones with overhead valve V8's put into small bodies. Olds Rocket 88 in 1949. Caddy had them too, but didn't put it into a small car. Every other maker still had flat head 8's, straight 8's or inline 6's.

Look it up in your history books!Wink
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:48 AM
would'nt put the 98 or the 88 as a small body car then you will get the younger group again saying that there Comaro is a muscle car. There listed as a mid size car from GM the Caddy is a Full Size car.
  • Member since
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Posted by raisin27 on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chas_Cochran

Ford 352ci and you call that equal to the Chevy Hypo 409 Police car not shure but i bet one on one the Hypo would clean its clock. But what i said was that there was some 50s cars that had where unsong hero's. But the Police had more of the special cars before the public did and the contract to supply the police in the US was the main reason for the HP on the motors then the Public started in it for Drag Racing.


I dont believe chevy had the 409 in 1960, It was still the 348 at that time. Later (1962 i think) they punched it out to 409 cubes, just as ford punched the 352 out to 390 and 406 cubes, then later 427, and 428. The 348-409 chevy motors were not really designed for performance (most of there reputation came not from the track but from the beach boys song) they were basicly truck motors, thats why GM abandoned them as performance motors and came out with the 396-427 big blocks, which definatly were performance designs.

by the way guys.........everyone knows ford stands for ...First On Race Day, or for the truck crowd....For Off Road Driving.............SoapBox..Raisin
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v19/amazinraisin27/
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:45 PM
a few 409s where in the Impala Police Cars this is why they where callled the Hypo Chevy in 1960. Gm did not make a new block or Motor for the 396 in 64 release this was an under stroke 409 with diffrent heads. The 409 was punched out in 65 to the 427ci and stroked. the Beach Boys song was in 63 and you can not even fined the model that they sang about. This was the 409ci 425 hp Duel Carb car with 4 sp, 4:56 gears in the rear and it was not even an SS. The 409 that a lot of the Top Drag Chevy teams found out from Dyno Don and my Father where that the Factory mis stamped all of the Cam's and retarted it on tooth. This was a loss of close to 15hp or more. This could be found out from Diel Indicating a cam. We have close to 9 of the motors laying here at the shop all still run and have close to 50k miles on them. We also have the 63 Impala that the beach boys sang for sale has 42k mils on it and ready for show or strip.
This was the one that ran in FX/A class in 63 at the Northern Nats here in Michigan and owned the Detroit Drag way on ET for Three Months.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:57 PM
Cole wasn't ready to throw in the towel, though. Instead, he toned the excess down considerably in the 1960 version of the car, and he had his engineers begin preparing a new, more svelte Chevrolet for 1961. That car was shorter than the '60 version by more than an inch and narrower by nearly two-and-a-half inches. Plus, it was bereft of tailfins. Instead, the crisply drawn side panels merged with an elegant chrome sweep across the top edge of the trunk lid. While not quite as exquisite as the '55, it was darn close, especially in sport coupe form.

Into the engine bay of this worthy vehicle was dropped Chevrolet's first 409 cubic inch V-8, a direct descendant of the 348. Dubbed "Turbo-Fire," the 409, whose production began in January 1961, boasted a single Carter four-barrel carb that supplied enough fuel-air mixture to conjure up 360 horsepower. And that was just the beginning; with a bit of hot-rodding, more than 400 horsepower was easily available.

All this did not go unnoticed on the dragstrip, where Chevrolet was waging a secret war for supremacy while supposedly staying out of motor racing. Don Nicholson showed up at the 1961 National Hot Road Association Winternationals in Pomona, California, with a new 409 and promptly cleaned everyone's clock. His full-size family car zipped through the quarter mile in 13.58 seconds at a heady 105.88 miles per hour. The car was said to easily romp from zero to 60 mph in under six seconds. Certainly, this was enough to inspire some early Brian Wilson tune-smithing from the Hawthorne, California-based Beach Boys.

While the 409 version of the '61 Chevrolet definitely lit up the street, it did not light up the sales charts. By the time the model year ended only 142 souls had scooped up 409s, and a high percentage of those were destined for life on the track, not street duty. Maybe the stiff (for the time) $425 premium for the 409 kept many buyers at bay.

A similar situation was developing around the Super Sports package that Chevrolet offered on 409-powered cars and selected top-performing 348s. The SS package included such good stuff as power brakes, power steering, sintered metallic brake lining, heavy-duty spring and shocks, plus appearance niceties like "spinner" wheel covers, white stripe tires, tachometer, and a passenger "grab bar" on the dash ala Corvette. But though all this largesse was offered for a piddling $54, only 453 buyers purchased the package in the '61 model year.

The following year was a different story. First the 409 engine itself was vastly improved with a new block casting, cast alloy heads, bigger intake valves and a 11.0:1 compression ratio. When topped with a single Carter carburetor, the '62 409 returned 380 horsepower, and equipped with two four-barrel carbs (the fabled "dual-quad" of song) it offered a reported 409 horsepower. A "Tri-Power" triple two-barrel version was also available, but few wanted to wade into that mechanical nightmare.

At the wheel of 1962 409s Hayden Profitt won the Mr. Stock Eliminator title, while "Dyno" Don Nicholson copped a second Stock Eliminator title at the Pomona Winternationals. That same year a Bel-Air sport coupe version of the car equipped with the "four-speed, dual-quad, Positraction" equipment prescribed by the Beach Boys managed an astounding 12.22-second quarter mile at 115 miles per hour. Zero to 60 miles per hour could be negotiated in four seconds flat.

"Civilians" looking for a strong dose of performance for the street began to flock to the 409 in larger numbers. Some 15,000 customers bought big-blocks in 1962, and for the '63 model year Chevrolet, under new GM Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen, upped the ante of 409 choices with a 425-horsepower dual quad version, a 400-horsepower single-carb version and a more streetable but still potent 340-horsepower single-carb offering.

Car Life testers of a '63 model equipped with GM's rudimentary Powerglide automatic transmission commented on how easy it was to break the rear tires loose simply by stomping the accelerator. "Keep in mind one important proviso," Car Life wrote, "It is not good judgment to put your foot down too hard when coming out of a corner, or when crossing a wet spot on the street. With so much acceleration available it is possible to pull out of a side street in front of oncoming traffic and punch it so hard the car will spin out!"
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:58 PM
but remember Perduction year for GM runs from May to May so you could order the car in 1960 and have it before the 61 winter Nats.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 25, 2003 11:44 AM
Part of my job as Englishtown Raceway Park's lead announcer is to know "everything there is to know" about muscle cars, and drag racing in general. I've always found that the best way to learn about the subject is to read about it and there is quite a bit out there.
Although there have been many books written about muscle cars and the era, some of them have fantastic photography but they also contain quite a bit of mis-information and just don't do justice to the subject. I recently picked up a book called 'American Muscle Cars' by Jim Campisano. Great book! Lots of color photos, all makes and models, good balance of technical information with great stories. It's a fun book.
WF
  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: Orange County, CA
Posted by SoCalCarCulture on Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:35 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Walter Frey

Part of my job as Englishtown Raceway Park's lead announcer is to know "everything there is to know" about muscle cars, and drag racing in general. I've always found that the best way to learn about the subject is to read about it and there is quite a bit out there.
Although there have been many books written about muscle cars and the era, some of them have fantastic photography but they also contain quite a bit of mis-information and just don't do justice to the subject.
WF


Walter

I couldn't agree more about the amount of myth and misinformation out there, but like you mention there are some good books out there.

Dave Lindsay http://www.socalcarculture.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 25, 2003 1:54 PM
i have that book and there is a lot of good info but also i think the books only still tell one side of the story and you have to get it from the people that realy lived it in the late 50s and early 60s to understand most of it. Its one of the things that i wish all younger Gen can and get to do before the Kings are all gone and all we have is a book and then you have to hope the info is right.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 25, 2003 11:39 PM
Not to be argumentative, but....... Did you ever hear the expression "The older I get, the faster I was" ? Although I lived through those times, 35 years has a weird effect on my memories and on others as well. There just ain't enough people around to educate all the newbies.
Many of the young racers I meet don't care anything about what happened 35 years ago! As long as they keep coming out to the track and have a good time, I'm happy. Maybe with the next group of rear drive American (Australian?) cars like the GTO, the next Camaro ( oh yeah, there will be one), and the promised rear drive Hemi powered cars from Chrysler the muscle car wars could be revived! And in another 35 years todays kids will be wanting to tell anyone who will listen about how great the battles were between Honda, Mitsubishi, and Subaru!
WF
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 26, 2003 1:59 PM
thats true but no matter what they do they can never have what we had. A factory car off the show room floor that could pull the front tires off the ground or go as fast sideways as forward.. They can keep the front wheel 200hp factory cars i will keep my over the weight 400 hp factory Hot Rod.
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 26, 2003 4:30 PM
QUOTE: would'nt put the 98 or the 88 as a small body car then you will get the younger group again saying that there Comaro is a muscle car. There listed as a mid size car from GM the Caddy is a Full Size car.


BIG DIFFERENCE in these cars! As you know, the term "Muscle car" means that there is a big motor in a little car. When Olds put the 98 engin in the 76 series to make the 88, they certianly did make a muscle car, the same way that Chevy put those Police special 409's into their lower class Impala models - better known as "The Bel Air".

The Camaro, however, is, and will always be, a Pony Car. The pony cars were small 2 door factory sports cars designed to seat 4 people and still retain their sporty look. These cars were raced in a different catagory than the Nascar / N.H.R.A. style muscle cars.

Later on, these pony cars became too underpowered to have the appeal of max performance found in a muscle car, like a Ford Galaxy or Olds 442. Therefore, the manufacturers decided to add the option of the big block motors to these Pony Cars. That's why the 1964 Mustang started with a 289 CI small block and progressed up the numbers so that by 1971 you could get a Mustang with a 429 big block. Plymouth Barracuda's did the same thing too. In the late '60's, it was a small block 360 and by 1971 it was a big block 429 Hemi. Since all the factories did this, you could say that the Pony Cars eventually became Muscle cars. Small car, large engine.

As for the Caddys, they never did enter the muscle car relms. The only one you could possible consider a "Muscle Car Caddy" would be the Eldorado, but again, it was a big front wheel drive car, sharing the same chassis as the Olds Toronado. Caddy always had reasonably large engines, eventually going up to 500 CI, but they weren't tire smoking supercars. I don't think there was ever a '60's Caddy entering Nascar, for example.

The problem is that a lot of the younger generation, by percentage, wouldn't know anything about the muscle cars other than they look cool, if you like the old stuff. Today the youth are all into super cars and tuners because that's what they can afford and what's popular.

The term "Muscle car" today is quite dead as far as new cars are concerned. Instead, with modern technology, they are reffered to as "Super Cars".

Horsepower is fed differently these days too. Up until the late 1980's, cars used carburators to move them. That's all they had! There was a lot of mechanical motion involved and a lot of inefficency in the carburators. You were also lucky if you got power steering in a lot of those cars.
These were true muscle cars because it took muscle to move them and hang on at high speeds.

After the late 1980's, all cars went to fuel injection, computer control chips, power steering, 4 wheel discs, air bags, and surround sound stereos. These cars were known as super cars because all these convienence things made them better than the muscle cars.

You can't compair a 200hp Honda to a 400hp '69 Dart. First of all, both the engines aren't even V8's. You need to compair the 400hp Dart V* to a modern 400+hp V8 car such as the Camaro for a true understanding.

Take two simular cars of 200hp, pound for pound, one with a carb and one with the fuel injection. I'm sure a modern Tuner Civic will pass a 1964 Mustang as though it was standing still.

Don't get me wrong. I'm for the old muscle car, but technology changes as time goes on. Unless you've been in both muscle car and super car flat out, how can you say which is better?

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 26, 2003 6:52 PM
I can say i had what they call a super car 93 Paxton Firebird that you could get from the Dealership but i still will take the old over the new i guess its cause i can see what im working on then punching up on a computer and so on. The Roller cam cant even make the same HP as the Hydro Cam can. So there is on of the things they changed and still can not come close to us old farts.
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 26, 2003 9:54 PM
There might not have been a Cadillac in Nascar in '60 but there sure was in the early fiftes! The big cars just flat wore out the little cars (with the exception on that Olds) and were the way to go lin the early days. The dreaded Hudson Hornet was a flathead design but handled so well and had so much low end torque that they were almost unbeatable for years. And here's a little know fact about a well known subject. That engine sound at the beginning of the Beach Boys record not only isn't a 409 but it isn't even a Chevy! The boys went out in the street in front of their house late one night and recorded the sound from one of their dad's cars for it. Here's the kicker, it was a 352 Ford engine that made the sounds for that famous Chevy song.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 27, 2003 12:26 PM
Perfect! This will my point across. You have to take the information from all
sources (books, TV, AND living breathing people).
That story about the Beach Boys and the 409 engine sounds from Mitchum was great. Was it true? Probably. But another poster wrote that Plymouth Barracudas started out with 360 small blocks and eventually ended up in '74 with "429 Hemis". NO WAY! What I'm trying to say is that no one person knows everything. If you truly want to know about any subject, whether it be muscle cars or bird watching you have to do a LOT of research. I personally find that part a whole lot of fun. So young muscle car fans, read books, watch "American Muscle Car" on TV and use the internet. Put all of the info together and you will eventually get the big picture.
WF
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 27, 2003 12:28 PM
OOOPS! I meant '71 in my statement above.
WF
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 27, 2003 6:09 PM
" Plymouth Barracuda's did the same thing too. In the late '60's, it was a small block 360 and by 1971 it was a big block 429 Hemi. "

Sorry, this should have read 426 Hemi. Chrysler never had a 429 anything. Ford had 427, 428 and 429. This was the result of a misguided finger on my number pad!

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