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TOO Diecast or not to diecast,Whats your thoughts?

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  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Englewood,Oh
TOO Diecast or not to diecast,Whats your thoughts?
Posted by rayray on Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:53 PM
Big SmileHey modelers I know I"m opening a BIG can of worms{so to speak}. But I was woundering what the building public thought about the diecast market? I myselve wish some of the subjects would be avaliable in Plastic that are not . I think the diecast is alot like resincast ,{a little more work than plastic}. But as I pointed to earlier not available in plastic So I build the diecast anyway and have had decent results. To close I was just woundering what you guys think?CoolORDisapprove

Ray D Sewell

  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:33 PM
Build what every you like to build but in show i think specialy in Junior divison they need to stay out of this. What does a kid learn from putting in two screws and buying it at the store. I still think they should have there class in all divison's because there is no way of telling if they bought it or not like that. But thats my thought on it.
  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: Canada
Posted by kevlar86 on Thursday, January 08, 2004 2:04 PM
I build what interests me. Weather it be a diecast or plastic. I prefer plastic but some models I own in diecast I cant find in plastic. Smile
Kevin check out My photoalbum http://photobucket.com/albums/v648/kevlar86/
  • Member since
    January, 2004
  • From: Fargo, North Dakota
Posted by nascarjj on Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:39 PM
I am a true plastic model builder, but my love of scale autos has also led me into the diecast collecting realm. Sometimes taking the time and effort to build that certain model in plastic form is tough when the diecast version is available. Instant gradification I suppose. With the detail and quality of todays diecast, it is hard not to take a second look. But with all said, I still feel a sense of pride knowing after I complete a plastic kit, it was done my way. (Hey, I think there's a song there somewhere) Thanks for listening!
What can be conceived, can be created!
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 09, 2004 5:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rayray

Big SmileHey modelers I know I"m opening a BIG can of worms{so to speak}. But I was woundering what the building public thought about the diecast market? I myselve wish some of the subjects would be avaliable in Plastic that are not . I think the diecast is alot like resincast ,{a little more work than plastic}. But as I pointed to earlier not available in plastic So I build the diecast anyway and have had decent results. To close I was just woundering what you guys think?CoolORDisapprove


I'm not quite sure whether I could disagree with you at all here. It seems to me that this "diecast vs plastic" ongoing controversy is but little more than a new edition of the old "plastic vs wood" argument which raged around model building when I was a kid.

it is certainly arguable that merely assembling a pre-painted diecast model right from the box is nothing more than that: Kit assembling.

However, taking this to the next level: Isn't a diecast body shell (and doors, hood, trunklid--if separate) really little more than a model car, but in a different medium? Of course it is! And, can't a diecast body be cut, chopped, sectioned, channeled, in pretty much the same manner as a plastic body? Of course it can, albeit with some greater difficulty, and certainly some more advanced tools & adhesives, but yes, it can. And, cannot diecast be detailed with photo-etched parts (for example MCG scripts), painted with any paint known to man, and its chrome trim foiled? Yes, of course!

I guess my point here is that it really shouldn't make all that much difference what medium a model car is made from, be it cardboard, wood, plastic, hand-formed sheet metal, diecast or tiddlywinks. It's the end result that should count, and little more.

I find the entire argument against diecast models to be inane, sophomoric. It just should not matter one whit what a builder started with, but rather his/her creativity and workmanship in taking that diecast to a higher level. Frankly, having now worked with several diecast conversions (I'll post pics of them when they are further along), I've found no more (and certainly no LESS) challenges than with any plastic kit I've whacked up (and over 40+ years, I've hacked up my share!), and the results no more and no less satisfying.

As for tools for use on diecast, of course, a Dremel MiniMite cordless tool becomes almost a must for any serious conversion work, along with an assortment of files, both large and needle variety. For fillers, catalyzed putties are all over the retail world now, try your local automotive body shop suppliers, they have all grades of this stuff, and in relatively small quantities also. For adhesives, well when JB Weld Epoxies came on the market, our adhesive problems virtually ended. And of course, with JB Weld and catalyzed putties to our aid, sheet and strip styrene becomes very workable with diecast. As for painting, just use your favorite brand of automotive touch up paint, with no fear of crazing, as diecast doesn't craze from "hot" thinners.

To sum all this up, diecast is simply another medium for building model cars, nothing more, nothing less. Zamac is not a threat to our hobby, but rather a new dimension, so get used to it, and maybe, just maybe, break out of the straight jacket and try something in diecast (of course, I'd not avoid something new if it came out in plastic!)

BiscuitbuilderCool
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 09, 2004 8:04 PM
to diecast or not to do diecast ,if they don"t make it in plastic whats a poor boy to do. but if you don"t know already its cheaper to buy it put together.just put the hemi by testors together nice kit my kids got me "BUT" watch out,the water pump holes are wrong for the alternator and stearing pump"OR" the brackets are to short i called they had no clue.screws didn"t work well in,metric,or inch ,same problem with there indian bike.PLASTIC COULD BE FIXED "BUT THOSE METAL KITS NEED SOME WORK. IF YOU WANT NICE PAINT "MOST "THE TIME BUY DIECAST,OTHER WISE STICK TO PLASTIC NOT METAL FOR KITS
  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: Englewood,Oh
Posted by rayray on Friday, January 09, 2004 8:24 PM
Hey, biscuibuilder. I really like what you've said and totally agree and you gave me some usefull tips--Thanks. I know ever since DUB & Jada has released their stuff the only diecast I really bought where Action and the such NASCARS. But tricking out some of the Dubs and Importracers can really become addicting. I'll post some PICS, as soon as I get my computer working right{driver issues}. But for the most part don't get me wrong I still build plastic and would prefer it but the availablity is'nt there sometimes, Thanks for your input. Ray

Ray D Sewell

  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: north georgia
Posted by roadhawg on Friday, January 09, 2004 10:16 PM
you know,ive been doing a lot of thinking about this. this past summer,while attending a full size car show, i saw something on one of the cars i was curious about and asked the owner about it. with a blank look on his face,he said he didnt know anything about cars,he just paid somebody to build it.
if someone pays a professional model builder an ungodly sum for the most detailed replica on the planet, is that ok but a well built diecast is not? nah,the point is the hobby should be to enjoy no matter what the model is made out of.
plastic, resin, diecast, wood, soap, whatever. does this make any sense???
Big SmileBig SmileBig Smile

I went to a "gentleman's club" because the sign said they had all the hottest models. I thought it was a hobby shop. Man, was I ever disappointed.

  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:09 AM
i recently purchased a welly 65 gto..its much more accurate than the old amt kit..i'm stripping the paint and dtailing it..ot me a diecast is just as much a model if you alter it to suit your desires
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 10, 2004 7:42 AM
The only thing that I don't like about Diecast is how I see it eventually taking "over" the hobby....Impossible you say? Well no it isn't, look at where all the wood models are? Hmmmmm cant really find much outside of a sailing ship nowadays can you. I like Diecast collecting and have between my fathers collection(Which I got when he passed on Memorial Day '02)and mine we have almost 700 Diecast cars of various types and scales....My collection is the small one....about 220 with the rest being his.

Do I bash people for buying diecast kits? Nope, not really though to be honest in the past I didnt consider that modeling(Hey Im just being honest,here!). Now well I don't like that form of modeling/modifying, but thats me....Build what you like, like what you build and build for yourself!!!

My only "fear" is I dont want to someday have my only option for modeling being soley diecast, of course by looking at my kit collection which has been on a huge increase in the last few months that wont be a problem. I dont think Diecast, should ever be allowed in General Car Modeling shows, PERIOD, under any category!

DISCLAIMER: This opinion of mine is subject to internal debate at any time and might be changed at any time with or without public showing,consent!Wink
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 10, 2004 9:20 AM
<snip>

My only "fear" is I dont want to someday have my only option for modeling being soley diecast, of course by looking at my kit collection which has been on a huge increase in the last few months that wont be a problem. I dont think Diecast, should ever be allowed in General Car Modeling shows, PERIOD, under any category!
<snip>

[/quote]

Well, were contests to prohibit "diecast" purely on the basis of the material used to produce the basic body shell, what purpose does that serve? If you mean simply the "pre-decorated" diecast model, taken out of the packaging and then entered, then only a contest run by morons and judged by same would give such an entry high marks over and above something that someone worked on for dozens, if not hundreds of hours to make a killer model from, it seems to me.

For years, the International Plastic Modelers Society (IPMS) wrestled with a very vague requirement that all models entered in IPMS competition be made from plastic (OK, so some said, how much plastic, will it be by weight, by parts count--just what constitutes a "plastic" model?) In point of truth, the "Plastic" in IPMS's name really began as a way of gaining some respect and status to the art of building model aircraft from plastic kits, in the face of considerable criticism in England, of modelers who didn't build their aircraft from wood, which the older modelers of the late 1950's-early 1960's considered to be the only "true" material for "real" scale modeling. However, even IPMS/USA has, I believe, given up on such an arbitrary requirement.

For myself, a scale model is what it is, a scale model. And, a model car is a model car, regardless of how it began. I've built model cars from wood, from metal, and of course, from plastic. On occasion, I've even used strathmore board, which is a paper product. Should that matter at all, what material I have used? I think not. Whenever possible, I like using materials (and base models) that get me where I want to go, and it doesn't matter one whit where I have to start, in order to get to the final model, pure and simple. If that means starting with a diecast model, well then so be it.

For more years than I care to count, I've always wanted to do a replica (will have to be done from memory, as I have no pics) of the 1950 Olds 88 coupe that my closest boyhood buddy bought, rodded, and drove when we were in high school in the years 1958-62. Charlie's Olds 88 was just so cool, in its factory light metallic green, with primer spots where he shaved the hood, decklid, and pulled off the side chrome. Now, I can spend hours and hours, cutting and stretching an AMT 51 Chevy, grafting in the roof from the knarly Revell '53 Chevy 2dr sedan (and correcting the sins of that poorly done piece!), then scratchbuilding the interior, but why re-invent the wheel here? Doesn't it make far more sense to take the Ertl Collectibles 1950 Olds NASCAR stocker, knock it apart, fill in the coin slot in the rear deck, go to Modelhaus for their reproduction Olds trim pieces (from the famed Cruver 49 Olds promo), add a set of decent wheels, get rid of the nasty mold lines in the diecast body, mix the paint, and go forward? I think so. Makes a great curbside, by the way. I will have excercised most, if not all the modeling skills I've learned along the way since the late 1950's in re-creating this car, and when I meet up once more with Charlie, at some class reunion, I will be able to show off something to him that will have given him a look back to his youth as well.

Or, what about the 1949 Olds woody station wagon I've been putzing with, based on this same diecast body? I've started this one by using a highly revised Revell 54 Chevy sedan delivery roof, and a ton of Evergreen sheet and strip styrene to make this station wagon body, mating all of this to a highly cut up diecast body. Wouldn't this piece, well-finished, be deserving of at least serious consideration amongst a whole table full of well-assembled, well detailed 100% styrene pieces? I would hope so!

I've had an affinity for the late 30's "barrel nosed" Ford pickups and medium duty trucks. To this end, I bought a couple of the Yatming 1938 Ford fire truck diecast pieces. Now, I've got this one in primer, as a correctly dimensioned 1938 Ford 1.5 ton stake truck. This took the addition of a much-modified Monogram 1940 Ford pickup cab (same basic cab as a 38, BTW), along with the diecast windshield area, cowl, hood front fenders and hood from the Yatming, added my own scratchbuilt platform bed with real wood stake fences--does the fact that I used some diecast stuff, along with basswood HO model RR wood any less of a model? Again, I hope not!

I don't care if I ever win a model car contest, or if I never, ever bring home a trophy! That's not why I build models. I build for me, and only me. If one of my pieces is good enough (in my opinion) to show off, then the world sees it, if not--then not. But please, please, don't diss diecast models, for they are but another medium, another source of grist for the mill of creating some pretty neat model cars and trucks.

(end of soapbox)

Biscuitbuilder Cool
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 10, 2004 12:56 PM
Dont see that anyone dissed diecast....at all.

Should it be allowed in shows, well I guess that depends on the type of show it is, maybe someone or some club needs to start a diecast show. I know around here they aren't/won't be allowed not even in the Junior division.....as far as you mentioning IPMS last time I checked IPMS stood for International "Plastic" Modelers Society....an organization that I will never take part in or belong to for many other reasons.

I certainly didnt diss diecast and if you read my post carefully enough you will see that. Sorry if Im dead set against something I wont own any, I have over 220 Diecast "Collectibles"....Modeling by generic definition is making something, building something, or heavily modifying something.

Ok Joe Smith heavily modifys a nascar diecast "collectible" by opening the trunk and hood and adding some PE parts and engine detail......So should he with his pre painted body be allowed to compete in the same show under the same category with the "other" nascar kits that took a lot more effort and work? Nope, I dont think so, but thats what I think....might not be what others think.

Each to thier own......While I collect diecast it isnt as much fun as building a model from a kit, even if I do modify it which I often do, but that again is just my opinion. This debate will go on long in the modeling community just as it already has.....it will just do so without me.
  • Member since
    December, 2003
  • From: north georgia
Posted by roadhawg on Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:15 PM
got a question....back in the 90`s i was fortunate enough to win several contests including a national event with a car that was constructed primarily out of brass. the roll cage was brass & aluminum tubing, the body was hand formed brass. about the only kit piece was the engine block, heads,and a few chassis components. now, my question is why would this be any different than a car built primarily from a diecast?
i see nothing wrong with diecasts competing with plastic. in fact, most diecast are way,way off in terms of scale accuratcy with those 2 inch door gaps and 5 inch wide hood hinges. just try to slip that by those IPMS judges!!!!

I went to a "gentleman's club" because the sign said they had all the hottest models. I thought it was a hobby shop. Man, was I ever disappointed.

  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: West of Chicago
Posted by garyo on Saturday, January 10, 2004 8:47 PM
I grab both. If the car looks good, and it's not in plastic, I have no problem with diecast.
  • Member since
    May, 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:37 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by roadhawg

got a question....back in the 90`s i was fortunate enough to win several contests including a national event with a car that was constructed primarily out of brass. the roll cage was brass & aluminum tubing, the body was hand formed brass. about the only kit piece was the engine block, heads,and a few chassis components. now, my question is why would this be any different than a car built primarily from a diecast?
i see nothing wrong with diecasts competing with plastic. in fact, most diecast are way,way off in terms of scale accuratcy with those 2 inch door gaps and 5 inch wide hood hinges. just try to slip that by those IPMS judges!!!!


Well, for starters, I think at least I implied that the finished model is the thing, not the material/media from which it was built! While except for a hand-formed, hinged hood for an MPC 1914 Stutz Bearcat, I've not done any metal body panels, I have done my share of fabricated chassis from brass and aluminum, where it made sense to do so. I have, however, done bodies from styrene (both kit and scratchbuilt), resin, hand-laid fiberglass, even wood where I wanted to replicate a real wood body (a woodie station wagon or two), so the material I started with should not be the question at all, IMHO.

As for the sloppy fit of most diecasts, yes that is true, it does exist. As a designer in the diecast model car industry, I do understand it, also why it is sometimes the norm, mostly due to cost reasons. However, it is fixable, after all, isn't that what being a model car builder is all about?

Biscuitbuilder
  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: TRENTON, OHIO
Posted by FIREMODELMAN on Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:47 PM
i suppose i'll toss in my opinion as well, i'll build die-cast, if i can mate it up with something scratchbuilt from plastic. but other than that i wont buy or build them.

Dave http://public.fotki.com/FIREMODELMAN/

  • Member since
    January, 2004
  • From: Fairfield, Ohio
Posted by Drackopolis on Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:17 PM
I'm all for another medium to enhance the hobby. whatever it takes to get the younger folks building then so be it.
I have never built a die-cast and have no plans on doing such either, but who knows when i'll see something i just have to have.....it just hasn't happened yet.

I will say that having an actual baked enamel paint job is a plus, but only if i do it myself can i have pride in it's appearance...
Rev. James D. Baker www.bakerministries.org

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