SEARCH SCALEAUTOMAG.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Magnifying Visors

4173 views
21 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Ithaca, MI
Magnifying Visors
Posted by doktor bondo on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:32 PM

In his most recent editorial, Jim Haught said that he felt judges using magnifying visors to view the models was a bit unfair.

 I thought it was just plain idiotic!

What is next?  Scanning electron microscopes?

Maybe this is a good thing- maybe this means that the models entered at the contest level are so good that the judges must literally pick them apart at the microscopic level to separate the best from the rest.

But even that scares me, because once the models pass the mag visor muster... how will builders up the ante?  Actual oil and fluids in the engine and drivetrain?  Pressurized air in the tires?  Legible, in-scale vin tags, I.D. plates and the like?  Or... will future 1/25 scale models need an actual, running engine to be competitive in shows?

Here's what I'm waiting for... the day when, to win in it's category, a model must be driven over a scale test track by a specially trained lab mouse.  (THAT I'd pay money to see!Laugh)

Magnifying visors.... was this what Spiro Agnew was talking about when he was refering to that "core of impunent snobs"?  I've heard the expression that nobody looks good under the microscope-  seems like most modelers feel the same logic applies to models.

 

There are some who know me as... Chuck Most

http://public.fotki.com/ChuckMost

  • Member since
    July 2005
Posted by Snake45 on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:58 PM

I suspect that you and Jim are younger than I am. Don't worry, your day is coming...if you're lucky.

I had 20/20 vision growing up. About 15 years ago I discovered that I needed reading glasses to do any kind of detail work on a model, and for really fine work, I needed an Opti-Visor.

Now the reading glasses are no good for anything but opening the box and maybe reading the instructions, if they font on them isn't TOO small. I have to do virtually ALL my modeling with the visor, about the only exception being airbrushing (and I wear the reading glasses for that).

So if you ask me to judge a model contest, guess what, I'm bringing the visor if you want me to see anything. If you don't want me to use the visor, then I'll be judging everything "curbside" from a distance of no closer than two, maybe three feet, depending on the lighting in the place.

Recovering aircraft modeler. "I can see me bound and gagged

Dragged behind the clownmobile...."

--Warren Zevon, "Hostage-O," Life'll Kill Ya, Artemis Record 2000

Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by jhaught on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:57 PM

I just turned 54, have worn glasses or contacts since age 9, and bifocals for the past few years. And I understand how hard is is to build without correction, especially as one gets older.

But with visors, we're talking about magnification, not correction to 20/20 vision. And I just don't think magnification is fair, because the model wasn't built for that level of scrutiny. 

Jim Haught

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Halfway between the Loop and the prairie
Posted by harry on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:06 PM

Maybe the level of skill and craftsmanship on display at model contests these days is so high that the judges need the magnifiers to determine a winner. I know I've seen models (mostly drag cars) that were so incredibly detailed that I'm sure I missed a lot of detail by not using a magnifier to view it, but just eyeballing it.

Is it "fair" to judge model cars in a contest that way? Sure it is. It's fair for the judges to use whatever methods they deem necessary to determine a winner. If you don't feel your work would pass that sort of scrutiny, then you need to heed the old adage: If you can't stand the heat... get out of the kitchen.

Just another reason, among many, why I would never enter a contest.

 

The pessimist sees the glass half empty. The optimist sees the glass half full. But only the realist sees that the glass is simply the wrong size. -------------------------------- "I've had a wonderful evening. Unfortunately this wasn't it"– Groucho Marx
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Atlanta GA
Posted by Zoom Zoom on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:47 PM

I'd rather look at models w/o magnification. They look better. If someone is so bent on using magnification for judging, I'd hate to think how little they are really enjoying this hobby.

It's kind of like model photographs; I see people take pictures of their models like they are trying to be "cool" and "artistic", with all kinds of crazy angles, closeups, bizarre lighting and forced perspective as if they are photographing a 1:1. It tends to magnify every flaw, and the model ends up completely unflattered by their efforts, looking even more like a model than most models. Sometimes I want to say "can you now take a photo to show us what the model REALLY looks like, without the crazy angles, closeups, and fisheye lens effects?"

Zoom Zoom, aka Bob Downie My Fotki Album The only cure for modeler's ADD is "final assembly and decal placement"
  • Member since
    February 2004
Posted by burlllee on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:40 PM

  Wow, personally I would probably go into a panic if somebody started looking at one of my builds with a magnifying glass/visor.....lol.

  I'm 52 and use "Wal-Mart" reading glasses when I'm building and I really enjoy detailing out a model but not to the point of someone needing to magnify it. I think it's wrong to put that kind of pressure on people that build to enter contest. If they go away thinking that's what it will take to win, then they just might get to thinking it's just not worth the time and trouble.

  Earl Smile

burlllee Mt. Airy, North Carolina, USA
  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Halfway between the Loop and the prairie
Posted by harry on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:41 PM

Zoom Zoom

I'd rather look at models w/o magnification. They look better. If someone is so bent on using magnification for judging, I'd hate to think how little they are really enjoying this hobby.

 

Contest judges' roles aren't to "enjoy" the hobby. They're there to try and determine which model is the best in a given category. If you enter a competition and put your model up against other competitors in a judged event, any method the judges deem necessary to determine the winner is fair game.

The pessimist sees the glass half empty. The optimist sees the glass half full. But only the realist sees that the glass is simply the wrong size. -------------------------------- "I've had a wonderful evening. Unfortunately this wasn't it"– Groucho Marx
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: SOUTH FLORIDUH
Posted by MikeMc on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:43 PM

jhaught

I just turned 54, have worn glasses or contacts since age 9, and bifocals for the past few years. And I understand how hard is is to build without correction, especially as one gets older.

But with visors, we're talking about magnification, not correction to 20/20 vision. And I just don't think magnification is fair, because the model wasn't built for that level of scrutiny. 

Then with that logic Bi and Trifocaled judges are cheating because of their vision magnification eyeglasses!  I'm the same age / older and I worked in camera and optical repair for 25 years. After working with my eyeloupe for all those years I've got to see..My hands and fingers work just fine so I grab a light with a big lense and build . So a judge needs to see the same way I needed to see my work, to do the job...and I've seen show judges who had to have been blind (or related..) Yep its all fair when it comes to rock n roll and modeling.....Smile,Wink, & Grin

HANG UP AND DRIVE........ Mike

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Greenville, SC
Posted by Mkowa PhD on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 2:27 AM

Doktor Bondo: Sorry about the duplication, you beat me by about 20 minutes...it took me that long to type my diatribe!

On the plus side, at least Jim knows we are reading his editorial page!Laugh

-Mike

* Please Note-I do not sell any of my built or unbuilt kits-Thank you.* Yes, I am a PROUD PARENT OF A U.S. MARINE! (currently-9-11-09-BACK in the USA!) http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/mkowa/
  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Ithaca, MI
Posted by doktor bondo on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 11:13 AM

Mkowa PhD

Doktor Bondo: Sorry about the duplication, you beat me by about 20 minutes...it took me that long to type my diatribe!

On the plus side, at least Jim knows we are reading his editorial page!Laugh

-Mike

Wow... that is some diatribe!!!

 

And for the record guys- I am 27 years old, have had lousy eyesight my whole life, and have worn glasses now for 12 years.  Yeah... I'll be needing some of those Wal-Mart reading glasses to build models before I know it...

There are some who know me as... Chuck Most

http://public.fotki.com/ChuckMost

Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by jhaught on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 3:42 PM

With enough magnification, ANY model will fail a judge's test. So all is NOT fair, because having some judges use magnification, and some not, makes the playing/judging field even more tilted than it often is anyway. 

Jim Haught

  • Member since
    July 2005
Posted by Snake45 on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 3:59 PM

jhaught

With enough magnification, ANY model will fail a judge's test.

Are you saying that some magnified judge somewhere might declare that ALL the models fall short of his standards and not give any awards to ANY? Ever seen or heard of this happening?

Magnified or not, I think you're still going to have degrees of skill exhibited and apparent, from best to worst.

Recovering aircraft modeler. "I can see me bound and gagged

Dragged behind the clownmobile...."

--Warren Zevon, "Hostage-O," Life'll Kill Ya, Artemis Record 2000

Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by jhaught on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 10:36 PM

 No, but I have seen magnified models downgraded after being viewed under magnification, and that's just not right.

Jim Haught

  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 2, 2009 11:15 AM

jhaught

 No, but I have seen magnified models downgraded after being viewed under magnification, and that's just not right.

Jim,

By your same logic, those who are farsighted wear eyeglasses that are in fact, magnifiers, in that the corrective lenses are convex in shape, just like any magnifying glass you can pick up at any store in this country, and as such, should NOT be contest judges.

And this is, absolutely my last post on Scale Auto Forums.

Bye!

Biscuitbuilder1

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Greenville, SC
Posted by Mkowa PhD on Thursday, July 2, 2009 12:57 PM

Art, if you are still here:

 I may be talking out of place, but I understand what you are talking about. I believe the aspect is that the visor comes into hand NOT because the judge has difficulty seeing in a normal 20/20 mode but that it is used to view the model closer than would normally be viewed by someone with 20/20 or 20/20 corrected. Jim's reasoning appears to be that maybe with the additional optics, the judge would become much more critical on aspects that don't normally need to have that much emphasis when judged by the normal controls in place at a contest level.

Human judging is just that-human. Unless there is a distinct mechanical control used to judge, the human element always brings his/her prejudices to bear.

-Mike

* Please Note-I do not sell any of my built or unbuilt kits-Thank you.* Yes, I am a PROUD PARENT OF A U.S. MARINE! (currently-9-11-09-BACK in the USA!) http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/mkowa/
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Cape Coral Florida
Posted by BigTallDad on Thursday, July 2, 2009 8:01 PM

I've been following both threads, and I guess it's time for my minor comments.

I wear corrective lenses (bifocals) and I use a magnifying glass when building; I doubt that I'm the only person using non-prescription magnification when assembling kits.

To use reverse logic, if judges shouldn't use non-prescription magnification when when judging, model-builders should follow the same rule when perfoming the construction.

NOT! I use the magnification to increase the quality of my builds; if it takes similar magnification to appreciate that quality, bring it on! For example, I have a functional dipstick in my '48 Ford convertible. Without magnification, you can't see the oil level (applied with a brown magic marker) when the dipstick is removed.

I think that we should focus on what qualities magnification will display, rather than what errors will appear.

Art: don't leave! I've enjoyed your contributions too much.

"In order to teach a dog, you must first be smarter than the dog" P.R. Ferguson

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Fort Mill, SC
Posted by johnbuzzed on Friday, July 3, 2009 9:03 AM

Please stick around, Biscuit... your knowledge is vast and much appreciated.  Don't let little things like this drive you away.

"You live, you learn".

John "The Buzzard" Buzzerio

Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by jhaught on Monday, July 6, 2009 12:42 AM
To those who have participated in the threads regarding use of magnification:

It has been pointed out to me that my editorial, and posts on this Forum about the subject, could be construed as degrading toward those with vision problems. Let me state clearly that there was no such intent, and I apologize to anyone who may have interpreted my remarks in such fashion.

As one who has dealt with increasing-strength methods of vision correction for 40+ years, I know only too well the difficulties involved with building models with bad eyes.

 The question about using magnification pertains only to those who do not need such assistance to see "normally" to judge models. And in the case in question, it is my best recollection that the judge I saw used the visor as a supplement, not a vision requirement. But because I can't say that with certainty, I was reluctant to include it as part of the original statement.

Again, I apologize to anyone who was offended by my remarks.

Jim Haught

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Atlanta GA
Posted by Zoom Zoom on Monday, July 6, 2009 6:30 PM

harry

Zoom Zoom

I'd rather look at models w/o magnification. They look better. If someone is so bent on using magnification for judging, I'd hate to think how little they are really enjoying this hobby.

 

Contest judges' roles aren't to "enjoy" the hobby. They're there to try and determine which model is the best in a given category. If you enter a competition and put your model up against other competitors in a judged event, any method the judges deem necessary to determine the winner is fair game.

 

I would expect those judges to be looking at every model the exact same way; if one is looked at under magnification, they all should be, and it should be clear to anyone who enters that this is how their work will be judged, with no surprises.

If you don't mind me asking, how often have you been to these contests, or entered them, or judged them? It's one thing to make conjectures, it's another to experience them first-hand. In this case Jim travels to many shows each year (as does Gregg for MCM), working hard during these weekends to do so, to bring the coverage to the readers. He's seen many different NNL's and contests, and the editorial to me is a excellent one, in that it has been very thought-provoking, with many different viewpoints. How many other editorials can anyone truly remember, especially ones that have elicited so much response? 

"Extreme Judging" shouldn't be that necessary. I've helped judge at some IPMS shows, never at any time was there a need for using Optivisors. Personally I would likely not bother entering a contest if that's how "serious" they took their judging. To me that level of scrutiny is beyond the scope of "fun". I'll take an NNL any day over that. If I'm going to be subjected to judging, I'll enter the GSL (IMHO it's the only model car contest really worth entering, with truly competent builders/judges, go big or go home!), and leave my models home for most IPMS shows. I've often wondered why the model hobby has been so "contest" focused for so long, and the NNL format really was a breath of fresh air when it took off, but it's only model cars builders that have embraced the concept. The IPMS/military guys have a hard time grasping a model show without a multitude of awards and a lot of sweating over judging. There are a lot of builders at NNL's who ultimately are more thrilled that their model made it into one of the magazines vs. getting a trophy. And getting a model in a magazine thankfully doesn't involve the photographer choosing what to photograph by way of an Optivisor Wink

Zoom Zoom, aka Bob Downie My Fotki Album The only cure for modeler's ADD is "final assembly and decal placement"
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Greenville, SC
Posted by Mkowa PhD on Tuesday, July 7, 2009 2:15 AM

Interesting critique Bob. I'm not a contest modeler (You've seen the junk pile!) and have really no involvement in them unless it is a local show where I view the contestants models. Knowing many local people that HAVE won both national and regional events in many different contest, I can attest to the fact that more than a few of these modelers feel more credence that thay have achieved acclaim by the modle in a national magazine vs. 'just a trophy!' However, maybe that is natural? Seeing your build in print and your name in a magazine is a trophy EVERYONE can view...and your name lives on in print!

-Mike

PS: Heck, I never would have known who Bob Downie was until I saw your name in print!Laugh

* Please Note-I do not sell any of my built or unbuilt kits-Thank you.* Yes, I am a PROUD PARENT OF A U.S. MARINE! (currently-9-11-09-BACK in the USA!) http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/mkowa/
  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by cruz missile on Tuesday, July 7, 2009 8:39 AM

Can't believe how serious some of these guys take this hobby of ours. Personally I think it was pretty obvious that Jim did not have any bad intentions when adding that comment in the magazine. It was a legitimate concern that I myself have heard over and over again. Anyway, that's all I will add, don't want to stir any troubles around here......  Happy modeling!!!!Wink

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Ithaca, MI
Posted by doktor bondo on Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:17 PM

How's about this, fellas-

 Maybe there could be an "Extreme Class", or something like that.

This way, the guys who enter thier models in competition and DO NOT want the models examined beneath the unblinking eye of a magnifying visor can opt out, yet still have a shot at bringing home some hardware. If a guy feels his model is good to go with the naked eye, he's set.

Of course, this would mean that some guys who weren't so hot on the whole magnifier deal to begin with may well 'step up their game', and try a shot at the "Extreme" best-of spot.

And, if you built the model with use of a magnification device, say so to the judges anyway- if it was built under magnification, it's probably best judged that way, as well.

The only problem with this theory (I think) would be that it would further fragment the already too fragmented classes at any given contest.

 

There are some who know me as... Chuck Most

http://public.fotki.com/ChuckMost

JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS

FREE MONTHLY NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our privacy policy